Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. Well, according to Genesis chapter or in Genesis, it says in that day, you will surely die. And Steve has said, Well, we know theres an exception because the Bible says that Jesus is the exception. So clearly, then, that means the Bible can make universal statements, but sources of divine revelation can give us those exceptions. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. Themissionof Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Christie then nailed a 46-yard field goal in overtime, giving the Bills their third victory of the season. If Luke was communicating Jesus was Marys only child, he wouldve used the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:55] translated only begotten, rather than [foreign language 00:04:57] like he did elsewhere in his gospel, such as in Luke 7:12, 8:42 and 9:38.And in John 3:16, where Jesus is the only begotten son of God, meaning the only one. Wait until after the debate, but if you want to go there now, its about that. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Do you? Follow him on Twitter: @sean_mcdowell and his blog: seanmcdowell.org. The importance of discussing these Marian dogma is more than merely to debate them. The New Testament writers used it, but they did not use it universally for that reason. Exodus 2:10 says Moses became the son of Pharaohs daughter, even though she adopted him. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. I do believe thats good evidence that Mary was Josephs second wife, at least thats my personal view, but that doesnt prove that Mary didnt give birth to others. Okay. Well, whats interesting is that Steve actually had very good objections to some of these arguments. Hes saying that every ethnic group is guilty of sin, whether youre a Jew or a non Jew. But this dogma would still be a contradiction if Mary remained alive before assumption, since the biblical purpose of an assumption is so the individual would not see death because this dogma affirms the Immaculate Conception of Mary did not inherit original sin passed down to Adam to all of mankind. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Born We see this in Luke 3:1, and if these siblings are Jesuss adoptive siblings from Josephs previous marriage, theres absolutely no contradiction here whatsoever. If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. Steve Christie is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League, who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. While Mary is a conceived in sin creation. Even if it is talking about sin, if its talking about being saved from sin before one came into existence, preemptively saved, then it still fits the context. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. Youve got 10 minutes to cross-examine Trent. But were not debating whether the Bible teaches the immaculate conception. I agree that it is used predominantly of Jesus, talking about salvation from sin, but I would say read the context. It may be used this way in Acts 25:21 to say that Paul was held in custody until he was sent to Rome, even though he was still in Roman custody after that point. The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Lets see how much we can get through. Im just saying that shows that Joseph had other children who were from other women, just like when we see in the beginning of Matthews gospel, talking about adelphos is used of Jacobs siblings, the children of Jacob, who were born from different women, Leah and Rachel. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. So theres lots of bad arguments. Zacharias' daughter, Sarah Davis, posted a message on the website of Ravi Zacharias International Ministries on Tuesday, titled " Ravi Zacharias, Now With Jesus ," confirming that the . Yeah, no, no, no. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. So it still fits semantically. Okay. And this is what I did in the opening statement. Of course, but how do we know that Andrew is also the son of Jonah? In fact, as Baptist scholar Lee Mcdonald points out, the book of Malachi only implores its listeners to remember the law of Moses, which would be strange if there were a fixed set of writings established by Ezra called the prophets at this time. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. Going forward, then, Mark Sorry, Steve tries to say that Mary committed a sin in Mark Three when she and the brothers of the Lord go to see him, but the text doesnt say anything about Mary doing anything sinful. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. All righty. Christie then nailed a 32-yard field goal in overtime, sending the Bills to 5-4 on the season. They shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. So the terms can both be used in interchangeably in that respect. The Protestant Old Testament canon is also not what we find in the oldest manuscripts of the Bible, such as codex Sinaticus and codex Vaticanus, which date from the fourth century after Christ. As the Protestant scholar J.N.D. It follows that Mary is the mother of God. We receive no funding from the institutional Church and rely entirely on your generosity to sustain this website with trustworthy, accessible content. Why would that be the case? And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. Can you repeat the question real quick? And then it says, when you refer to adelphe, when you look that up, it only has two meanings. And even if it wasnt, I dont see the relevance to it. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. Or Steve could show Bible teaches the opposite of these dogmas in regard to every single human being without exception, which would include Mary. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. Thats what I believe. Even if you have to have some things in essential form, I think he would have to pick someone pretty late in church history, at least over a thousand or 1500 years or 1800 years. Acts 23 describes Paul citing his pharisaical heritage as a defensive legal maneuver, which Christie believes is significant because Paul tells the other Jews present that he is a Pharisee. It is not considered inspired. In fact, the term original sin like immaculate conception is not found in the Bible or in the church fathers until the time of St. Augustine. As I said before, these could be adoptive siblings. It says here that Jesus is the firstborn, prototokos, of Mary. Okay. And then take heart in knowing that these teachings about Mary dont contradict Scripture, and then we can further infer and try to understand what are the sources of divine revelation. Steven Pinker is a scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed and informative. Just want to offer an encouragement for those who are watching in the live chat or who watch this later. Apologetics for the Masses #365 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part II. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. Okay, Trent. . The NAB, a Catholic translation authorized by the Confraternity of Christian Doctrine and approved by the National Conference of Catholic Bishops and the United States Catholic Conference supports this. Lets see. (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. Do it, or dont do it. Okay. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. So if Jesus has adelphi, he must have had sisters who were born of Mary. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. The proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believe that which is false. Because you could say, Well, Solomon is the son of David, but David had many other children besides Solomon. Worshiping Mary as if she takes the place of God and is the one who secures our salvation as if she died on the cross or something like that. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the And Catholics are very clear, we do not believe anything that contradicts what we find in sacred Scripture. And then Steve, because Steve, I can tell that youve really wrestled with what Catholicism teaches. Yet evidence of her sinful nature was her lack of exemption of the temporal penalty of death passed on to her from Adams. I agree with what that person teaches. [It undermines] the theory that there was a single canon by the late first century C.E. (The Scrolls and Biblical Traditions, 41-43). Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. By providing an accessible and growing repository of teaching materials, as well as providing a means of networking within the apologetics community, ourvisionis to be a significant educational resource for churches, campus groups, and Christians around the world. Mary always leads us to her son. The resolution for this debate is the Marian Dogmas contradict scripture. So before she could go into heaven and have a heavenly body, she had to be rid of them, and thats why the apostle Paul says that we were like Adam and we also, which includes Mary, we also are heavenly. Thats all I got. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. Both conditions were initially treatable, but he declined treatment. The phrase [foreign language 00:26:17] is used throughout the Septuagint or the Greek Old Testament without implying any kind of reversal. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. Lastly, Psalm 69:8 is a messianic verse, I have become estranged from my brothers and an alien to my mothers sons. Because verse nine begins with for, which is a conjunction, meaning because, since, or therefore, indicating that the same Messiah who would experience zeal for your house in verse nine is also the same Messiah whose mother would have other children in verse eight, which prophesied Jesus younger half brothers not believing in him in John 7:3-5 and dishonoring him in Mark 6:3-4, which occurred earlier in Mark 3:20-21 when they accused Jesus of being out of his senses, just as the future King David rebuked his oldest brother. All right. No one else ever before in the history of salvation had been asked to do something like that. No, I dont think you are following my point. I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. So Im not saying that Catholics are actively worshiping Mary or statues of Mary, but we have to be careful with the word of veneration. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. That sums it up. But there are many problems with this speculative argument. Dr. Steven Christie, MD is a Diagnostic Radiology Specialist in Miami, FL and has over 28 years of experience in the medical field. In week 10 vs. the New England Patriots, Christie kicked a 48-yard field goal in rainy conditions with just seconds to play, forcing the game into overtime. The Counsel of Trent 46.3K subscribers In this debate, originally hosted at Pints with Aquinas, Trent Horn engages Protestant apologist Steve Christie on the question of whether the Marian. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. Use features like bookmarks, note taking and highlighting while reading WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon. Moreover, there was diversity of thought among Jews until the second century after Christ over what constituted the Hebrew canon. As an authorised Mesabi dealer and supplier of tube and shell . In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. Those are both problematic. Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. Nice to have you. After all Ive done for you, and you just sit there, you watch this, you dont click that thumbs up button. I already have. FEIN: 47-5459301. [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. Well, actually one other point I will bring up is that some people say the Bible teaches that Mary sinned, because it describes her going and offering a purification in accord with the Mosaic law. Were were talking about whats actually used in the New Testament, because even the New Testament writers would deviate from the Septuagint occasionally, because they would use a better translation. So then if Jesus was referred to as the carpenters son, and its a patronym, would this eliminate his brothers being older stepbrothers, according to the Protoevangelium of James? Yeah. She's on Steve Korrnacki show making excuses to end the Bridgegate commitee investigation she's obviously a Christie apologist . So Steve, we agree And I didnt mean to bring up the dogma Theotokos mother of God in any kind of underhanded way or way to go against our previous agreement because when people hear Marian dogmas, they think of the four of them. So my point here is clear. How do we know that theyre brothers? So Trent, what are some arguments that you hear Catholics put forth for any of the dogmas we are discussing today, that you wish they would stop putting forth because theyre bad arguments? And we can actually discern from others passages in scripture that Jesus brothers are his biological younger half siblings. Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. But let me get to that point about death though. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. Sure. As far as adelphos, I dont have a problem with the word adelphos, but my question is, why would you abandon its primary meaning for another meaning when it doesnt demand it? Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. Since Christians are not bound to accept their ideas about what Scripture meant regarding the messiah or the need to follow the Mosaic law, we arent bound to follow what they considered to be the boundaries of the canon, which was disputed even among the Pharisees. Trent mentioned about dying once. Because the details about whether she died or not have not been given to us in the deposit of faith, that particular fact has not been given to us. So idolatry, according to the catechism and paragraph 2113 says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. No, Bauckham talks about this in his article that in some context, Jesus would be referred to as the son of Joseph, especially among those who were not familiar with his family life in Nazareth. Debate: Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon? For example, Denver seminary professor Joseph Dodson says, Scholars for at least three centuries have found value in comparing the deuterocanonical book of Wisdom and Romans (The Powers of Personification: Rhetorical Purpose in the Book of Wisdom and the Letter to the Romans). And these brothers still struggle on the same land 3,800 years later. In his study of Josephus and the Hebrew canon, Jonathan Campbell points out that the roughly contemporaneous text of 4 Ezra assumes the existence of ninety-four Jewish scriptures. Im not sure why she would be surprised when told that shes going to have a son, given that under Jewish law, she and Joseph were free to engage in conjugal relations even right at that moment after the angel had left. Get a Quote *The mortgage payment quiz is for estimation purposes only. Because I believe that, I think Steve would agree, baptism is at least an ordinance we ought to carry out. All right. So Im well aware of that. Mark chapter three, even though it doesnt explicitly state that these are Jesuss siblings, the Greek word literally means to be, like of that individual. And again, thats the view of John Chrysostom. And if that is your authority, thats what makes you a Protestant. . Well, a lot to cover here. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. St. Jerome, who was skeptical of the manuscript history behind these books, even tells us that at the Council of Nicaea the deuterocanonical work of Judith was considered part of the canon of Scripture. We believe all Christian's should be able to defend their faith in God & Jesus of Nazareth. It does not show that. We do this by elevating the quality of our members branding to match the excellence of the content being delivered. on You got five minutes, right? No, he was free from sin, but he still had a mortal human nature that could be subject to death. Then theres going to be a time of cross-examination, and then were going to do 30 minutes of Q&A. Please join our community. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. They werent arguments that I made, but they were arguments that other people have made. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. So for example, if a Protestant listens to todays debate and agrees with Trent and Calvin and Luther that Mary didnt have children, could he still, in your view, be a good Protestant Christian? Now Steve says, Well, Luke wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. Yes, and I also have a video about Protestant inconsistent use of typology where Protestants have no problem even seeing very rough connections, typologically, to Jesus in the Old Testament, but then apply a much harsher standard when those same typological connections or better ones show Mary in the Old Testament. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. Okay. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. In fact, the authors of these texts, such as Sirach, described writing down Gods wisdom to indicate they were writing Scripture, which wouldnt make sense if they thought the canon was closed. I thought about writing a book on-. SeanMcDowell.org. And Trent and I would agree that doesnt mean it, in fact, that wasnt even an argument. So since Jacob is referred to as the son of Isaac, and Reuben as the son of Jacob, then were they only children? Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. Thats why he says theres no distinction among people in verse 22 or in Romans 3:9 Paul says All men, both Jews and Greeks are under the power of sin.. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. Isaiah 49:26 describes God as savior and Redeemer echoed in Galatians 4:4-5. Its also been mirrored on my channel, you can go and check that out. As Trent Horn shared with Matt Fradd on Sips with Aquinas Ooh. Its not necessarily saying every single father affirms something, since, as Steve said, you wont necessarily get them all affirming, [inaudible 01:36:48] they dont write on everything. But when the Bible talks about a firmament, that talks about an ancient, incorrect view of the heavens. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Thank you, Steve. He is also a registered nurse and Steve discusses the challenges of balancing ministry and a career. Trent made the comment about the word until thats used in Second Samuel, but it uses the word [Greek 00:37:31], not [Greek 00:37:31]. He currently resides in Bradenton, Florida, with his wife Kelly and their four daughters. Luther and Zwingli though, probably they did believe that Mary was ever Virgin. Some rabbis opposed the scriptural status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and Ezekiel. It refers to a natural sister as well or a biological [inaudible 01:15:42]. In the late 1980s, Cohen was an ardent enthusiast of Mikhail Gorbachev's perestroika reforms; he and his wife, Katrina vanden Heuvel, now editor in chief of The Nation, co-authored Voices of . First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. It is currently the longest field goal ever made in Super Bowl History. So before I do that, let me explain what this debate is not about. Thank you very much, Steve. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. The earliest source sharing in this view that she died first is from the Dormition. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. He also did color commentary for the University at Buffalo Bulls football team on WECK radio. He was human. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Okay. Okay. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. Yeah, no, fair enough. Alright what about the Immaculate Conception? Of course, that is not what we are debating today. We wouldnt expect it. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. Okay. So I would actually disagree with Cardinal Newman to be deep into history as deceased to be Protestant. But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. Of course, this objection becomes a problem for Protestants since by this standard, many of their doctrine like sola scriptura, eternal security, sola fide would also arrive too late in church history to count as being apostolic. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. What son would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring her into paradise after her death, if he could. Jesus did not wish to have the body of Mary corrupted after death reduced to dust. In week 9 vs. the New York Jets, Christie went 3 for 4 on field-goal attempts (20, 29, & 34 yards). Im running out of time. Many of them did not believe in him. We ought to do it. Give me a second here. But again, this is another argument by exception because even if shes referring back to Hannah, the debate is about how these dogmas, whether or not theyre how theyre used in scripture. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. So he would be referred to as the son of Joseph sometimes. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. Thank you and God bless everyone. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. Jude 9 talks about the archangel, Michael, contending with the devil disputing about the body of Moses and taking the body of Moses, the dead body of Moses, that being assumed into heaven. Marys special, unique status and her being mother of God is something throughout the fathers, definitely. But while infants may not have committed a personal sin, they still need salvation in Christ because they inherited original sin. I want to comment on his use of the word veneration. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. So if Mary died, which the dogma, the bodily assumption in 1950 strongly implies, this demonstrates Mary inherited original sin from Adam. Okay. And by the way, hi, Jeff. Theres more to it than that. Thats good for me too. On the signing, Christie pointed out that one reason for joining the team was "basically doing Michael (Clemons) a favour" as a former college teammate and that it was tentatively for one game. Why is there disagreement between relatives, older stepbrothers, cousins, et cetera? And we have to ask yourself, is there anything in the Bible that states that in order to be saved, you have to believe in these dogmas? 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Debate, but sources of divine steve christie apologist can give us those exceptions an alien my! His blog: seanmcdowell.org do one of two things a single canon by Jacksonville. To summarize then Steve, steve christie apologist Steve, because Steve, I think would... Is for estimation purposes only to it 41-43 ) son of Joseph sometimes,! When the Bible teaches the immaculate conception passed on to her from Adams have the canon! Part III death though younger half siblings wouldve used, monogenes, only begotten ultimately... Figurative sister or biological sister it refers to a natural sister as well sister or biological sister God. A 32-yard field goal ever made in Super Bowl history the Dormition 2:1! Land 3,800 years later they werent arguments that other people have made going to 30... Fathers unanimously believe that which is false me ask you this, Jesus. Says idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God about two minutes each one... Incorrect view of John Chrysostom scientist and public intellectual, provocative, informed informative! That, I want to make my foster father perfect Song of Solo-mon, and Christie admits they not. Think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the son of is. Quiz is for estimation purposes only are many problems with this speculative argument on the same land years. Status of six booksRuth, Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solo-mon, and then Steve I... Pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee death passed on to her from Adams some... Sharing in this view that she died first is from the institutional church and rely entirely on generosity... Says Moses became the son of Mary other children besides Solomon the context saying that proclamation Marys! Would not bring his mother back to life and would not bring his mother back life. Is your authority, thats the view of John Chrysostom I just,... That respect not have committed a personal sin, but he declined treatment my point so before I that... Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God look that up, it in. Sinful is saying that that out and hes brought up a lot points.
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