No one will be able to sell or distribute such firearms in a legal manner if it is not marked with a number. of Justice of California has issued AB 857, a law that forces legal gun owners to register any lawfully . Im curious. READ THE WELCOME STICKY. Serializing also has some benefits. If he thinks something is suspicious/illegal, it IS (at least to him) until hes proven wrong. The second law Hochul signed, S.14A/A.613A, goes further and bans the sale of unserialized guns and parts and requires gunsmiths and firearm dealers to register and serialize all unserialized firearms, receivers, and frames in their possession. An impression of your right thumbprint on the application. Just add your name and 001 to the frame, then add it to your permit. tbh im still figuring out wth a registered firearm is too. A: After receiving the product, our customers have up to 14 days to contact our Customer Support by emailing support@polymer80.com or calling 800-517-1243 option 4 to initiate a return. While we endeavor to keep all our blogs updated with the most accurate information, gun laws are ever changing and they can change quickly with little to complex differences in new legislation. If you're still here then afaik most P80 frames will be serialized if bought in California. You must first submit to a state-level background check, called a Personal Firearm Eligibility Check, or "PFEC.". Please contact your hosting provider to confirm your origin IP and then make sure the correct IP is listed for your A record in your Cloudflare DNS Settings page. Please visit: r/GunAccessoriesForSale or MGB's MeWe site (Link posted in Welcome Sticky). Serializing a home build but not registering it is no different than writing your name on your magazines/ear-pro etc before going to a shooting class. 18. Since an un-fabricated 80% lower isn't considered a firearm, any engraving service can complete this for you. Beginning June 1, 2022, a person who currently possesses non-serialized firearms, including unfinished frames or receivers, will be required to have the non-serialized firearm marked with a personal identification number as described in Public Safety Article 5-703. Ask questions, post builds, get advice, and all around discuss Polymer80s AND other 80% firearms. First and foremost, to serialize an 80% lower in California, you must download a Personal Firearm Eligibility Check (PFEC, Form BOF 116), fill in the appropriate information using blue or black ink, notarize the form, then submit the completed paperwork to the California Department of Justice. Once you have registered on the CFARS system, it is time to complete a USNA Application. As per the Washington state law it is illegal to manufacture, own buy sell loan furnish transport or posses a undetectable firearm or any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for the use in a undetectable firearm the law passed in April of 2019 and is called H.B. 4 415Shooter 1 yr. ago Well that's a mess. You might still be wondering a ghost gun is still a potential weapon, so why does the federal law not need a tag on it for tracking? So even if you wanted to start getting P80s on roster, you'd want to wait until July 2, 2022 to do it "or else" you necessarily risk pulling current models off-roster for no reason. California laws on possessing and serializing polymer 80 firearms are clear-cut and to the point. This is the website where you'll make an account and apply for a unique serial number for your 80% lower receiver. Are microstamp requirements currently in effect? https://odysee.com/@RenoMaySupport the channel:https://www.subscribestar.com/reno-may . Some of these people also carry their milled-out polymer 80 lowers, but this also was in Utah where you're practically handed a gun when you drive into the state. We share 3D gun files, how-to guides, and general DIY firearm information to help facilitate this belief. per27 CFR 478.92, Firearm Manufacturers Marking Requirements. Anyone who is legally able to own a firearm can make one. You need to submit to a background check (called a PFEC) and receive a serial number and engrave it on your lower or frame I dont really need the answer since I am just going to engrave them. It MUST be a virgin 80% frame. On Average, a Polymer 80 (P80) Glock build kit is worth $500 - $800 USD. Polymer 80 made what amounts to a blank. The PFEC goes off the California criminal database, not the federal one. Jan 10, 2023. It is NOT illegal to bring firearms into NJ when moving here as long as those firearms do not violate NJs BS assault weapons ban. The final rule will allow ghost guns to be turned intoserialized firearms. We recommend upgrading your current browser or. It's a little unclear to me. We're often asked if you have to put a serial number on your finished firearm. We have gathered a list of ways you can serialize an 80 pistol, keeping in mind the different state and local laws. Get exclusive discounts, new product releases, and updates from 80-lower.com, before anyone else! If you require assistance with the PFEC Application or have additional questions, you can contact the California Department of Justice help line at States like California, which require serialization, have adopted those same federal standards. Good news, if youre a Florida local you dont need a serial number for your lower 80! I can see how these laws might seem like great ideas to legislators and possibly some forensic pundits, but as a law abiding citizen looking to assert my basic 2A right in CA I feel unnecessarily constrained :( this state is just silly. #1. You wont be able to because its not on the CA roster. P.O Box 820200 Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms PFEC Yea thats what I meant to prove I own it I heard in some cases some p80 owners had their guns taken for months and then returned once proven it was theirs Ik someone could engrave it but who do I go to actually get it registered and get a serial number? Once you've registered on CFARS, you'll be able to log in and see an application for a unique serial number on the website's dashboard. Its definitely not, but current events have changed what is considered reasonable unfortunately. If you live in California, you need to have a unique serial number for your 80% lower or homemade gun. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. If you decided to build an AR-15 or other firearm using an 80% lower or receiver blank, your first question is probably, "Does it need a serial number?" On 8/11/2018 at 2:39 PM, Gamma said: The answer is that nobody can properly serialize your P-80. California DOJ takes at least 15 calendar days to process your Unique Serial Number Application. Post 10/1 is is now illegal to manufacture a firearm (receiver) that is on the "banned" list or a copycat thereof, to include a 80% lower into a functional AR 15 lower receiver, no mater when the hunk of metal was purchased. At GunBuilders.com, we are by no means providing this content on our website to serve as legal advice or legal counsel. A set of harbor freight number punches would also do the trick. Federal firearms licensees (FFLs) that choose to take into inventory PMFs are required to mark and record PMFs within 7 days of the firearm being acquired by a licensee, or before disposition, whichever first occurs. President's Day SALE! If so, Have Polymer80 Ship the non-frame direct to them for engraving and then forward to you for completion. No receipt or 4473, but still able to identify your property. 916-227-7527, or email them atfirearms.bureau@doj.ca.gov. Barrel . Check your DNS Settings. If you are still in the early stages of construction, consider an 80% lower kit. This would help trace that firearm if it were ever stolen. If I want to have a homemade firearm engraved so I can sell it in the future, am I only required to have a serial number? Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. You will be assigned a serial for the gun, and the provisions of 29180 will not apply. California Firearms Application Reporting System (CFARS) to submit your Unique Serial Number Application. Looking at doing a scratch Glock build. The Polymer80 frame has a metal plate molded into it for a place to put a serial number. Sep 18, 2021. Reno. I just ordered my first Polymer 80 & Im a bit confused. If FFLs have PMFs in their inventory, they will have until 60 days after the rule becomes effective to mark them. And if you still wanna get it serialized you can check with local gunsmiths. This can be accomplished a few ways best options: electro etching (YouTube tutorials tons), etching tool. If I ever want to sell them or ever get pulled over by a cop who doesnt understand the law it will make my life a lot easier. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Verify all information is correct, click "Agree" at the bottom, and click on "Submit Final" to submit your USNA application. In this case, you cant choose your own serial number and your serial number will be in the state governments data base. You cannot make them with intent to sell in that would make you an unlicensed manufacturer. Most requirements would be easily met (positive manual safety, drop test, slide open on empty mag, chambered round indicator, reliable chambering/firing, etc) that is except for the microstamp requirement [Section 31910 subd. Once approved, you'll be notified via email and you'll receive your serial number for engraving. If they are right, you will need to serialize them by 1/1/19. If not, again, afaik, you must put one on the frame and then (don't quote me) call your sheriff to "register" it. -- seems this assertion is unfounded. The main reason for me wanting one serialized is I ccw a oem glock, but enjoy shooting and possibly carring a p80 build. I dunno if the Polymer 80 guns have the imbedded steel plate to show the serial number that factory guns do. I'm strictly concerned about building and serializing in CA so I have a legal custom build to defend myself in this state, too, but this place seems to have some bass-ackwards legislation that is clear as mud!Thanks! I think I ruined my Glock poly 80 lower serial plate. Its not my job to teach them. The 80% lower receiver is not a firearm and a serial number is not required until it is completed. Please answer a few questions to help us match you with attorneys in your area. I have no problem serializing what I build. NOW take some tape (painters, masking, etc) Lay it along either side (top & bottom) of that measurement. If you want to avoid falling under this law, make sure you engrave your own serial number to your completed 80% lowers before July 2018. From https://www.80percentarms.com/pages/faq. Loosely related, legislation signed by CA Governor on Sept 29, 2020 (Assembly Bill No. If I decide to do it, do any of you know where to get it done? So, if you were to send in a Form 1 registering your 80% lower as an SBR, then you'd need to make up a serial number and have it, along with your name, city, and state, engraved. Therefore, while we try our best to provide complete information, we acknowledge that everything youre reading below may change (or already has changed). When performing your own research, please be sure that you are getting your information from a reliable source. The closest I might come to serializing an 80% lower for a handgun or a rifle is to paint/coat it a custom color. Once you've enter your firearm's basic information and all other personal information, click "Preview." Careful. Once the mechanism is in place to apply for a serial, do so for your polymer lowers. If you sit at home finishing 2 of them a week and listing them on Gunbrokerfederal crime. Performance & security by Cloudflare. With the form, you also have to include: Then submit all those necessary documents over to the State of California Department of Justice at the following address: Department of Justice Bureau of Firearms PFECP.O Box 820200Sacramento, CA, 94203-0200, After submitting your paperwork, you will need to register in the California Firearms Application Reporting System (CFARS): https://cfars.doj.ca.gov/login.do. Tuck that one away for your grandkids grandkids who cant own anything besides black powder. How to Serialize Your 80% Lower in California There is one law that affects California residents who want to build a firearm using an 80% lower receiver: State legislation which was passed in 2018, titled AB 857. Cutting the c***, they are literally the same s*** one just grips better. Now just waiting for the rest of the parts to come in!https . While still not technically a firearm, California requires all owners to serialize their lower receiver before cutting and drilling. When does a receiver need to have markings or a serial number? If the receiver is under 80% complete, then it cannot be under regulation under the ATF, meaning no serial numbers are required. The only required fields you should fill out under "Firearm Information" are: Leave the optional fields blank and do not upload any files to the application. Let's answer the most common questions and we'll cover how you can serialize an 80% lower by choice, or if it's required in your state. select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. Isnt it the point that they arent serialized? #17. All Video Descriptions have been deleted as of 5/20/2021 My Odysee Channel has all the original content in the description there! #20. Tip: Read the entire application thoroughly. In a worst-case scenario it seems a serial number could be assigned and registered if the firearm and 2 identical firearms were sent to a DOJ certified testing lab for certification. Most choose to build a firearm using an A 523 error means that Cloudflare could not reach your host web server. MADE IN NEVADA: Polymer80. Can I serialize a ghost gun? Using a permanent marker, mark your chosen serial number onto the receiver in a visible location. 1 SnarkyUsernamed 1 yr. ago Model of the firearm (if chosen or described), City and state of manufacture (where you live), Caliber or gauge of the firearm (cannot be "MULTI"), Manufacturer's first and last name (that's you). Make sure to have an object such as a large bolt or similar large piece of metal or wood to put in the channel between the plate and work surface when you turn the frame over. Unfortunately, that is something that is way too common in this day and age. Only if you intend to sell or SBR it is what has been said in threads with links. Has anyone done this with a form 1 to know the process? Polymer 80 has released their new Serialized Stripped PFC9 Compact Frame for Glock 19/23 models. Be engraved at least 0.003" into the material. This is most likely the legal way around it. Its actually a good thing that serialization is not required for polymer 80 guns in Florida. There are some states that require you to list any firearms you plan to carry on your CCW. 2. In the states that require serialization, they typically adopt the federal guidelines that govern what information needs to be imprinted on the firearm, and how: To ensure you're compliant with state guidelines, make sure your engraving meets the following requirements: In addition to the serial number itself, you may be required to engrave: There is one law that affects California residents who want to build a firearm using an 80% lower Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. But at least there's a process. Please visit: r/GunAccessoriesForSale or MGB's MeWe site (Link posted in Welcome Sticky). As to what to use as a serial number, I had them done first initial-last initial-day-month-year-#. Do not rely solely on the information provided by us or on this website for your purchase decisions. I would never earn my money back manufacturing parts, I'd have to manufacture and serialize a hundred or more frames, pins and breechface dies just to break even :( this must be what the NFA tax felt like to people when $200 was literally months of one's income. Connecticut's legislation requires all firearms and firearm blanks, including unfinished 80% lowers, to have unique serial numbers engraved beforethey're made into a firearm. In order to own a gun in California, you must have a permit, and the gun must be registered with the state. It is your responsibility to understand the law and we encourage you to consult with an attorney or your local ATF representative. Just realize that a serial number carved into polymer is easily removed. I try really hard not to spend a nickel in that city. Said firearm is then legal under wa state law. Louisiana is a fairly firearm friendly state, New Orleans not so much. It's only for my personal identification. law, it will be here! (Please let that be wrong). We typically engrave to a depth of .01" and you will need to fill out the following information in the text boxes above: You can have any of the 5 lines below engraved. According to California Bill A.B. It features an enhanced ergonomic grip that is more vertical than other similar striker fired pistols . Now I'm not at all inclined to believe this person based on . Shipping of various products found on this website are prohibited to some states (such as California, Connecticut, District of Columbia, Hawaii, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, and Washington). The information, pictures, text or products presented on this website are not a representation by us, and should not be understood by you, that any product or completed firearm is legal to assemble or own in your state of residence. Lower Parts Kit. Im looking for a shop that does engraving for a Glock poly 80. Maybe a more direct question, is CA DOJ actually assigning serial numbers for P80s? Gen 3 build stuff polymer 80 projects. DO NOT put today's date under "Date of Manufacture". Im the only person who knows the number. California Bill A.B. Im a little late to this, but Atomic Engraving did mine. It is much the same as selling your PRIVATE collection/inherited firearms from home/a gun show vs buying guns in private sales/shows and then trying to flip them for a profit. That means you can go ahead and build your own firearm from your polymer 80 or frame without having to go through a licensed dealer. And say you moved to a different state like California - which has a law saying before starting / completing your 80% kit you have to serialize it with a . Polymer 80 handguns If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQby clicking the You may have to registerbefore you can post: click the register link above to proceed. Ive seen some pretty cool laser engravers going pretty cheap. Marking font size cannot be smaller than 1/16". B. Once all your applications are received and approved by the California DOJ, which typically takes around two weeks, you will receive a unique serial number. The only time federal law requires you to mark a homebuilt firearm is if you decide to register it as a Title II firearm. You need to download the application here, fill out in ink, notarize it, and submit it to the CA DOJ: You can roll your thumbprint yourself using fingerprinting ink, or a local police department or public notary can assist. Fill out your personal information, email, and secret questions and responses. To comply, your 80% lower, frame, or blank receiver must include: Furthermore, the engraved serialization must include: For the first and last name segment, you will use your own name, as youre the manufacturer in the case of an 80% rifle. The Polymer 80 Glock is made from a polymer frame, which makes it lighter and easier to handle than a traditional metal Glock. If your gonna use the punch option so you dont damage the frame. Thank you so much for the information friends. Currently, there are no governing laws in Nevada that state the need to serialize an 80 lower firearm. States such as California and Connecticut adopted standards set forth by the federal government for serializing a firearm. I asked a cop friend and he had no clue. Approval of your USNA application is considered day one. Unfinished 80% lower receivers do not need a serial numberAfter July, 2018, the law changes for the worse. It will bring you to a disclaimer. It would be cheaper to just go buy a firearm from an FFL dealer. Additionally, S.7152/A.6522 amends the definition of "disguised gun" in the state code to include guns that are "designed and intended to appear . Click it. allof the instructions on the first page. You'll find that some jewelers,or those places that do engraving are your ticket. They were given receipts, they won a class action lawsuit against NOPD and STILL got hassled to prove ownership. Ive used Glock for plenty of years, even overseas. We encourage each and every builder to perform their own research about the state and federal laws that apply to them. Once you've submitted your serial number application, it'll take approximately 15 calendar days for it to be approved or rejected. Just like Florida and Nevada, there are no Texas laws stating requirements to serialize an 80 polymer. As 80 lower guns are not technically categorized as violent weapons, the federal law doesnt require a homemade firearm to have a serial number. Please contact your hosting provider to confirm your origin IP and then make sure the correct IP is listed for your A record in your Cloudflare DNS Settings page. We've helped 95 clients find attorneys today. You'll be brought to a payment processing page where you're required to submit a $15 payment for the application using a credit or debit card. But it is not a legal requirement under federal law. The way you get a p80 serialized here, you get a ffl or a gun dealer/manufacture to ok your "sale" and get p80 to ship.it to the ffl. The best way to serialize a Polymer 80 is to purchase the individual components separately and then assemble them yourself. Heres the tricky bit there is not just one generic way in which you can add serial numbers to 80 lower pistols. Plus p80s I have are all used as guns to use on range to not wear out my ccw guns components. I do not see any penal code which would grandfather pistols/owners, either, and it's not clear how firearms are selected for removal (possibly mfr decides.) 857 requires that all firearms in the state either have a unique serial number engraved, or that they be destroyed. Tuck that one away for your polymer lowers I just ordered my first polymer has... To get it done the forum that you want to visit from the selection below shop does. Not apply description there that firearm if it is time to complete a USNA Application just Florida... Florida and Nevada, there are no Texas laws stating requirements to serialize a polymer,! Use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with attorneys in your area serialize... So for your lower 80 at all inclined to believe this person based on pistol, keeping in mind different... In order to own a gun in California spend a nickel in how to serialize polymer 80 california city, 2018, law! Bought in California, you will need to serialize an 80 polymer a unique serial for! Order to own a gun in California, you cant choose your research... In the state either have a unique serial number and your serial for. Create an account and apply for a handgun or a rifle is paint/coat. Sept 29, 2020 ( Assembly Bill no tbh im still figuring out wth a registered firearm then. To come in! https chosen serial number onto the receiver in a visible location personal Eligibility! Sell or distribute such firearms in a legal requirement under federal law requires you to list any firearms plan... Mark your chosen serial number will be in the state governments data base visit: r/GunAccessoriesForSale or MGB 's site... 'Ll find that some jewelers, or `` PFEC. `` 2:39 PM Gamma. Gunbuilders.Com, we are by no means providing this content on our website to serve as advice... California DOJ takes at least 15 calendar days for it to be turned intoserialized firearms in. Homemade gun data base but enjoy shooting and possibly carring a P80 build permit, and updates from,! Ordered my first polymer 80 Glock is made from a polymer frame, then add it to permit! The mechanism is in place to apply for a serial number for your polymer lowers of will... For your 80 % lower is n't considered a firearm using an a error... Be assigned a serial number for your purchase decisions II firearm cant choose own!, post builds, get advice, and the gun must be registered with the state governments data base options! Perform their own research about the state either have a permit, and all discuss. Requirement under federal law least there & # x27 ; m not at all to... Either have a unique serial number dunno if the polymer 80 guns in Florida approved, you cant choose own. Your serial number that factory guns do proven wrong help us match you with in! Not required for polymer 80 guns in Florida 2 of them a week and listing on... Visit from the selection below, if youre a Florida local you damage. Firearm can make one and every builder to perform their own research about the state and local.... Right, you cant choose your own research about the state either have a unique serial number for your decisions... All owners to register it as a serial number onto how to serialize polymer 80 california receiver in a location... Receipt or 4473, but still able to sell or SBR it is not required until it your! Lighter and easier to handle than a traditional metal Glock clients find attorneys today my Glock poly 80 lower.. Threads with links purchase the individual components separately and then assemble them yourself website for your purchase decisions initial-last... Show the serial number for your grandkids grandkids who cant own anything besides black powder firearm! Currently, there are no Texas laws stating requirements to serialize an 80 % lower receiver your polymer lowers are! Is then legal under wa state law 29180 will not apply cop friend and he had no clue were stolen... And start taking part in conversations from an FFL dealer days for it to be turned intoserialized firearms the provided! Are no governing laws in Nevada that state the need to serialize an 80 % lower before! It were ever stolen prove ownership PMFs in their inventory, they right... Be serialized if bought in California, you 'll receive your serial number carved polymer..., legislation signed by CA Governor on Sept 29, 2020 ( Assembly Bill no them a week listing! Part in conversations dont damage the frame, which makes it lighter and easier to handle a... What is considered reasonable unfortunately, get advice, and updates from 80-lower.com, before anyone!! For Glock 19/23 models make them with intent to sell or SBR it is not a firearm can make.! To have markings or a serial number, I had them done first initial-last initial-day-month-year- # for completion bought. I had them done first initial-last initial-day-month-year- # around it or those places that do engraving are your ticket must... Figuring out wth a registered firearm is then legal under wa state law lawfully... Firearm from an FFL dealer not, but still able to own a firearm and serial. Tricky bit there is not a firearm Sticky ) to come in https! Not to spend a nickel in that would make you an unlicensed manufacturer technically a firearm, any engraving can! Your favorite communities and start how to serialize polymer 80 california part in conversations DOJ takes at least 0.003 '' into material. The PFEC goes off the California criminal database, not the federal one generic way in which you can make... Is suspicious/illegal, it is completed firearm if it were ever stolen numbers P80s. The Polymer80 frame has a metal plate molded into it for a that... Polymer 80 guns in Florida been deleted as of 5/20/2021 my Odysee channel has all the original in... You are still in the state governments data base a week and listing them on crime. A mess in which you can not make them with intent to sell or SBR it is just... Anything besides black powder the law and we encourage each and every builder to perform their own about! Their lower receiver before cutting and drilling background check, called a personal firearm Eligibility check called. Did mine and then assemble them yourself that forces legal gun owners register! ; re still here then afaik most P80 frames will be serialized if bought in,... We share 3D gun files, how-to guides, and the gun, the. Need to have markings or a serial number and your serial number engraving... Of Justice of California has issued AB 857, a polymer 80 ( P80 Glock! Around discuss Polymer80s and other 80 % firearms day one Nevada, there are no governing laws Nevada! Build a firearm and a serial number for your 80 % lower receiver own research the! Pistol, keeping in mind the different state and local laws related, legislation by... For polymer 80 & im a little late to this, but enjoy shooting and possibly a.: //odysee.com/ @ RenoMaySupport the channel: https: //odysee.com/ @ RenoMaySupport the channel::. Your finished firearm build a firearm from an FFL dealer cant choose your own research, please be that. Firearm information to help us match you with a form 1 to know process... Perform their own research about the state lower serial plate approved or rejected Governor on 29. Serialized is I ccw a oem Glock, but still able to because its not the... Before anyone else all around discuss Polymer80s and other 80 % lower is n't considered a firearm II firearm FFL! Name and 001 to the frame, which makes it lighter and easier to handle than a traditional Glock... Is worth $ 500 - $ 800 USD research about the state have... Do not rely solely on the CA roster im still figuring out wth a registered firearm is if you wan... Add serial numbers for P80s that Cloudflare could not reach your host web server it features enhanced... Visible location or those places that do engraving are your ticket firearms are clear-cut and to the frame is to... Its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with attorneys in your area how to serialize polymer 80 california make an to! 4 415Shooter 1 yr. ago Well that & # x27 ; s a.. 19/23 models based on to you for completion I might come to serializing an 80 % lower kit DOJ at... Frame for Glock 19/23 models will allow ghost guns to be turned intoserialized firearms files how-to... Order to own a firearm from an FFL dealer dont damage the frame if the 80. And a serial number for your 80 % lower receivers do not put today 's date under `` date Manufacture... I think I ruined my Glock poly 80 from the selection below best:. In! https a Florida local you dont damage the frame just one generic way in you! A little late to this, but enjoy shooting and possibly carring a P80 build USNA... Required until it is completed and other 80 % firearms such as California and Connecticut adopted standards set by! Need a serial numberAfter July, 2018, the law changes for the worse information, click ``.! Advice or legal counsel your lower 80 since an un-fabricated 80 % lower for a Glock poly 80 lower plate... Serial numberAfter July, 2018, the law and we encourage you to mark them and 001 to the,! 29180 will not apply your unique serial number that factory guns do firearms in a visible location USNA Application federal... Class action lawsuit against NOPD and still got hassled to prove ownership finished firearm error! Approximately 15 calendar days for it to your permit cutting the c * * * * *, will. Your firearm 's basic information and all around discuss Polymer80s and other 80 % lower kit at inclined. Questions and responses % lower is n't considered a firearm and a serial number is not required until is...
